NBS #121: The Hidden Connection Between Mold, Lyme, and MCAS

What if one of the biggest reasons people stay stuck in chronic illness recovery is mold?

In this episode of Never Been Sicker, Michael Rubino sits down with integrative medicine practitioner Michelle McKeon to talk about the overlap between mold exposure, Lyme disease, mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), long COVID, immune dysregulation, and personalized treatment.

Michelle shares why more patients today need customized care, how mold can suppress the immune system and complicate recovery, and why treatment order matters so much for sensitive people. Michael also explains why proper home investigation and remediation are essential if someone wants real, sustainable progress.

In this episode, they cover:
- Why mold is often a major missing piece in recovery
- The connection between mold, Lyme, and MCAS
- Why some people flare from supplements and detox protocols
- How long COVID and environmental exposure may overlap
- Why generalized testing and treatment often miss the full picture
- How personalized care can help sensitive patients move forward
If you’ve been dealing with mold illness, chronic inflammation, Lyme, long COVID, or MCAS, this episode connects many of the dots.

Timestamps
0:00 Intro
0:31 Michelle introduces her background and work
2:54 Personalized medicine and personalized remediation
4:16 Why some patients need a more customized approach
5:16 FMT and gut microbiome support for sensitive patients
7:08 Blood cleansing therapies and lingering inflammatory burdens
11:28 Michael asks about long COVID and indoor air quality
13:10 Toxic bucket theory, mold exposure, and MCAS
15:16 Why mold is a major factor for so many chronic illness patients
16:58 The problem with poor inspections and bad remediation
18:42 Why drainage pathways and sequencing matter in recovery
21:18 Michael explains why center-of-room air sampling is flawed
24:08 Why thorough remediation matters
26:25 Why more patients now understand mold is serious
28:13 Michelle shares her own experience with humidity and VOCs
30:48 Looking at the body and home holistically
31:14 The Lyme and mold connection
34:47 Why aggressive treatment can backfire in sensitive patients
36:58 Nervous system regulation and trauma in chronic illness
37:23 The emotional cost of getting dismissed by doctors
38:42 Do you need to treat mold before Lyme?
40:38 Mold’s impact on psychiatric symptoms and brain inflammation
42:56 Mold, anxiety, depression, and root cause medicine
47:00 What MCAS is and why it matters
53:24 Michael asks the biggest lie Michelle has uncovered
54:25 Michelle says the biggest lie is that mold is not that serious
55:58 Michael explains why “mold is everywhere” is misleading
1:05:22 Wrap-up and where to find Michelle

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🔵 About Michelle :
Michelle McKeon is the owner of The Lyme Specialist, a Licensed Integrative Nutritionist, and Certified Mold Practitioner specializing in tick-borne infections, environmental toxins, gut health, and inflammatory conditions. After overcoming her own severe battle with Lyme disease and co-infections, Michelle went on to earn her master’s degree in Human Nutrition and now helps clients address root causes including mold mycotoxins, infections, genetics, and detox challenges. She is also an author, speaker, and advocate for people navigating complex chronic illness.

🔵 Follow her:
Website: https://thelymespecialist.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelymespecialist/

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🔵 My Favorite Cleaning Products: https

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

My name is Michael Rubino. I'm on a personal mission to make sure you don't get sick inside your own home.

SPEAKER_03 0:05

I knew there was something wrong. I'm just so relieved there's something that you can do about it.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hello and welcome to another episode of Never Been Sicker. I'm your host, indoor air quality expert, Michael Rubino. And today we have a very special guest. Michelle, we've known each other for a long time. And uh we've done some IG lives together back when that was a thing. And uh really excited to have you on the podcast and get a little bit of an update. So for those who haven't seen us talk before, can you tell me a little bit about, you know, give everybody your name, your credentials, and a little background, and then we'll kind of dive right in.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

All right, awesome. Happy to be here. My name is Michelle McCune. I'm a licensed integrative medicine practitioner. I specialize in tick-borne infections and environmental toxins in my practice. And then I also partner with hospitals that oftentimes they're inpatient, and they will uh work with people with multisystemic complex conditions. So that involves tick-borne infections, it involves uh biotoxin illness and SERS and mast cell. They also work with people with cancer. And um, and it's been exciting because recently we've been able to go in and um and make these programs a lot more customized. Um, I would say that like there is that population of 60% of people that will go in and then can do a general program, come out and be like, okay, I feel pretty good. And then there's this 40% that I'm actually seeing to be growing growing bigger and bigger each year, that they go into a general program and they're like, they come out and they're like, whoa, that was so much for my body. I feel inflamed. And um, and things need to be a lot more customized. So um recently I've been working on going to these hospitals and creating customized programs and then using treatments which we can delve into in a little bit, but um, that include blood cleansing treatments and uh gut microbiome treatments, um, and then a lot of different treatments to help with uh long haul COVID, mold mycotoxins, and and then lowering the pathogenic load as well. So, as you know, if you're listening to this podcast, um, there are so many factors in getting better and uh and also having sustainable results. And so we're just trying to look into all those little pieces, especially for people that are sensitive, so that instead of them like, I don't know, getting a glutathione IV and having a flare-up, being like, hey, wait a second, your sulfur pathway pathway is not working. Like, we need to give you some lightdenum and and then slowly um start introducing other things when your body is ready. So that's been that's been the focus right now is working with people that are extra sensitive and figuring out how we can move the the needle for sustainable results.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

And uh, there's so many parallels in what we both do. Like, for example, I typically work with people who are very sensitive. Um, and uh you you really just brought up personalized medicine. So I'm gonna tell you about personalized remediation and how I think that these really like we have to all start to have a better health uh care approach because I think that and unfortunately people do need personalized medicine and personalized care. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because just to give you like some frame of reference around actually helping people, you can't just have an overall protocol. Like I can't just like overall go in, open up the same wall in every house, remediate the same window in every house, right? And there are certain things like you can always expect. Obviously, the HVAC systems need to be cleaned, and obviously the house is gonna need to be cleaned, but where the problem is, the source of the issue, the root cause, is gonna be different in every location because no no two bodies are alike, no two homes are alike, right? And so I love what you said about how hey, yeah, there's this protocol and it works 60% of the time, but we're seeing 40% of the cases it's not working, and that needs a more personalized approach, and then you're obviously helping them get that personalized approach. And just just out of just out of pure uh curiosity, why do you think that is that it that it works 60% of the time, not 40%, not 100% of the time?

SPEAKER_03 4:28

I think that throughout the years, and I think COVID had an impact on this, um, and just environmental toxins in general, um, people are becoming more sick and and then their genetic SNPs are impacted as well. So there had been people that I worked with, you know, 10 years ago that did a general program and did great. And then they got COVID or the COVID vaccine and their body was a lot more sensitive. They developed mass cell activation syndrome, or maybe they moved into a house that had mold and and that really flared them up. And there, there was that toolbox that they used to help them bounce back. And now some of those tools in that toolbox they're too sensitive to. So we're really needing to take a step back and be like, okay, let's see what's going on as a whole and figure out different ways on what is going to move the the needle. Um, one of the things that has been, I think, kind of exciting that I've been seeing is something called FMT, fecal microbial transplant, um, which might sound a little strange, but um, it is, it is what it sounds like. Um, and and what we're doing is we're doing a gut test, so like a GI MAP test or a gut zoomer, figuring out what exactly is going on in their gut if they have um, you know, SIBO or some type of gut dysbiosis or leaky gut. And then when we work with hospitals, those hospitals vet donors, and then they will collect um uh different donors and create a microbiome uh that is very specific for that patient. And so, you know, there were people that would come into my yeah, and and people would come into my practice and they'd be like, okay, I can eat five foods and I can only tolerate like two supplements. And I was like, okay, like let's go very low and slow. Let's try to stabilize your muscles, let's see what's going on in your environment. Um, and we'd get to a sort of certain point, and then I'd be like, you know what? I think you're ready for FMT. Um, and so they would, they would do go in, go and have FMT done at one of these hospitals. And they were so much more resilient and they were so much more receptive to other other treatments. Um, and and 70% of the immune system is in your gut. So that was modulating your immune system. Also, a lot of mast cells are in your gut. And then there's the gut brain barrier and inflammation in your gut can cause inflammation in other areas of your body. Uh, so that's been that's been really great to be like, okay, for these people that are feeling very stuck and hopeless and and also not able to eat a lot of food, no one wants that. Um, this has been, this has been a game changer for them. So that's been that's been cool to see. The other thing that I've noticed that has been helping people is um initially when COVID happened, I was working with patients and I'd see people come in and they were they were doing great like a year ago. And then they either got COVID or the COVID vaccine and they'd have a big flare-up. And I noticed, not for everybody, but for a good amount of people, there were people that um it was a lot easier for me to treat people that had COVID than um than people that had gotten the COVID vaccine. And I was like, okay, something's going on because it was like clockwork. It happened a lot. And now I'm working with hospitals that have a lot of blood cleansing, blood cleansing treatments. So aphoresis, plasmapuresis, inuphoresis. And for those of you who are like, what language are you speaking? Um, it's basically taking blood out, filtering it, and getting uh toxins out, whether it's dead Lyme pathogens, whether it is mold mycotoxins, environmental toxins, heavy metals, um, or even spike proteins. So when working with these hospitals and these labs and these scientists, we are finding that 30% of the population cannot expel these spike proteins. And I started noticing that when I would um recommend a patient to one of these hospitals, they would say, okay, did they ever have COVID? How many times? And how many, and do they ever have the COVID vaccine, and what vaccine and how many times? And I'm not against vaccines, uh, but I do think that there is a population where vaccines can be difficult to metabolize. And a lot of times when we're creating vaccines, we have like eight to ten years to create them. Unfortunately, we were in a pandemic that it was like, okay, we need something.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Eight to ten minutes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Sooner rather than later. And so now, years later, we're seeing um that these spike proteins are still in a lot of people. And in in the States, you know, I'm seeing a lot of people use biofilm busters. So like natokinee, um, baluctorase to try to get these spike proteins out of their body. However, if you have a tick-borne infection and you're opening up biofilms, um, that can activate these pathogens. So I've had a lot more success with people getting like apharesis or inuporesis, filtering out these spike proteins. And we're noticing that depending on how many vaccines they had, um, which vaccines they had, it they may need more uh blood cleansing treatments than others. So there's been, yeah, there's been things that I've seen over time, and now it's kind of all coming, um, coming, coming around full circle. And I'm able to kind of put all the pieces together of like, oh, this is why it was a bit trickier to treat people that got this certain vaccine. Um, and again, that's not the case for for everybody, but um, it was something that I was seeing a lot of. And now it's been really cool to work with people that have been stuck and they had a very dysregulated immune system. And they're getting these treatments that are getting these spike proteins finally out of their system. And now their immune system is able to be regulated and they're starting to start, start feeling better. And that's helping with all these other conditions that they were also having as well. So that's been that's been exciting and and uh fun to work on with not only seeing actual um the tests of the spike tea spike proteins decrease. And there's like two laboratories that I really like. One is in Berlin and the other is in Switzerland. Um, but then also to see these these people that were going from uh being incredibly sick to being able to move forward and um seeing that not only in the data, but also in their symptom improvement.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Well, now I'm like, I gotta get tested for these spike proteins because now I'm curious about my own body, right? I mean, I had COVID at least twice from you know, at some point I just stopped testing. It was like I was sick, okay. I stay home. You know, that's just how it works. But um it, you know, it's I could only imagine, and we obviously don't know all the uh information out there, but of course I've heard the term spike proteins being thrown around for the past six years, and obviously the studies around them and making sure that they're actually able to leave the body is obviously an important thing. Uh you haven't heard her heard that terminology with all these other illnesses like the flu and all these other things that have been around for a while, so it's obviously a new concern. So um, yeah, I I'm very interested in getting getting one of these tests, and we can talk offline about how one would go about that because very interested in how do I continue to improve my health and overall well-being. I couldn't say that I'm dealing with any specific symptoms that I would be concerned about, but uh hey, I think it's better to know than not know. And I like testing, not guessing, so that's definitely something I'm interested in. Um I'm curious, long COVID has obviously been something that has been talked about over the last few years. Um, I've I've known people that have been battling long COVID. Um, and I'll tell you something I've noticed. I've noticed that uh people with long COVID typically have some indoor air quality issues. Mold, bacteria, a lot of particles in suspension, poor HVAC systems, poor HVAC designs. Just think, just you know, just the overall gamut of bad indoor air quality seems to have some sort of connection with long COVID. Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_03 13:22

I think that you know, everybody has a toxic bucket. Um, and depending on their genetics, their pathogenic load, um, there's so many factors, but there's only so much that we can handle before our toxic bucket overflows. And within the five years, you know, COVID came around. And a lot of times that had impacted people in getting the spike protein, creating inflammation. And then also because of COVID, people were staying inside their homes. Uh, and many times people, I mean, I would say every there's no mold-free home, but um, but yeah, having having COVID and then um being exposed to mold, you're more susceptible to getting something like mast cell activation syndrome. And and that has blown up in the past five years. So earlier when we talked about like, hey, like, you know, we're seeing that people are more sensitive and they can't just do a general protocol, I would say it's a lot of it, a lot of it is because of mast cell activation syndrome. And um, mold has been a huge contributor, just like COVID and Lyme, and um, and then it's just kind of like the combination of everything, where um you may have been doing okay. You may have gotten bit by a tick at some point and and your immune system was able to handle it. And then maybe you got COVID or the COVID vaccine and it tipped you over. And now you're staying inside your house because you know, people are are um unable to go to work and things like that, and everything is virtual for a period of time. And and if your house has a problem, then then that just overtips everything. And now you're like, okay, my body, my body's done. Like I'm trying my my tools that I normally would use, but I really don't feel good. I really don't feel like myself, and something is not right. And so, yeah, I mean, it's I would say that probably 80% of the people that I work with, um, they come to me for other things like um like Lyme disease or co-infections um or autoimmune conditions or gut issues. And and I would say that like 80% of them are also dealing with mold. That is a massive component in their recovery process. So indoor air quality um is thankfully, um uh you guys are doing a great job in creating awareness. And um there is that foundation Change the Air Foundation. Is that what it's called? That that's amazing. I'm like super excited about that. Um, but but that's what we need because yeah, people will come into my practice and and I'll be like, okay, yes, you are dealing with SIBO and and Lyme disease, but um, you know, you've been working with other practitioners and you're you're feeling stuck because we haven't looked at your environment. And and then sometimes they're like, well, you know, we had an inspector come in. Um, or then sometimes they're like, oh, you know, we had a remeter remediator come in. We spent so much money, but we don't feel better. And and uh unfortunately, not all inspectors, not all remediators are the same. And so really figuring out, like, okay, like you're very sensitive. Um, you also may have the HLADR gene, uh, which is uh a genetic um, it's a genetic SNP that doesn't allow your body to detox mold mycotoxins as effectively as possible. So um, so yeah, just looking at everything as a big picture, the devil is in the detail, and oftentimes mold can be the devil that that you go in, you're like, yeah, I had an inspector. They said it was okay. They did like an air sample and it was fine. Um, or like, yeah, I had an inspector, and then a remediator came, and then I'll look at their remediation report and I'll be like, ooh, like this actually contaminated your house even more. Um so that's where you guys come in, and it's like you understand this very sensitive population and all of the very important steps to take so that we're not doing cross-contamination and creating more flare-ups, um, and that the uh the areas that do have issues are properly contained. Um, so it's not just about like, yes, I have mold, let me get an inspector, let me have it remediated. Um, it's about yes, I have mold. Uh, treating mold is a whole different ballgame of just like not even going right to binders, but making sure the body is ready to handle the binders, and then also working with the right inspectors and remediators so that your results can be sustainable and we're not creating a bigger issue. Uh so yeah, it's it's really a team coming together and uh figuring out how to have the most sustainable results. And on my side, these people are so, so sick. So they'll come in and they'll be like, well, you know, I tried cholesteromine. That's a really popular binder. But cholesteromine only gets at a few mold mycotoxins and it can be also very constipating. Um, and if your drainage pathways are not open, then these toxins are just circulating and you can feel really, really crummy. Um, so it's like one step forward, two steps backwards. So before even going into binders, I I kind of try to figure out how are your drainage pathways working? Um, do you have mast cell? Do we need to stabilize your mast cells before even opening up your drainage pathways? And and that would um, you know, when I say drainage pathways, that means supporting your liver, your kidneys, your lymphatic system, uh, making sure your bile is moving and that these toxins are able to get out. And then also really supporting your mitochondria. That's like the powerhouse. That's what gives you energy and brain function. And mold specifically takes such a massive hit on your mitochondria. So there's a lot of work to do prior to getting these um mold mycotoxins out of your body so that you don't really, so that you don't feel really crummy during the process and you're able to move forward. It's it's slow and steady. Um, but that's what I always say, kind of like fast is slow and slow is fast. So if you go too fast, um, you kind of oftentimes have a flare-up. And then you're like, whoa, I really don't feel good. Um, and then then we want to back it up a little bit and be like, okay, let's slowly implement these strategies. And as your body gets stronger, then we can start doing things like phosphatylcholine infusions or like, let's add an asana, but let's do a binder before we do a asana, sweat out the toxins, and then take electrolytes and minerals to replenish whatever was um taken out of your system. So it's all about balance. And that's what I'm doing on the medical side. But if their home is still contaminated, that's only gonna get them so far. And that's why it's so important to have the right inspectors that aren't just gonna do, I'm not against air sampling, but I think that um, you know, maybe doing an air sample in a wall cavity uh and then swabs as well. And um yeah, there's there's so many pieces when you're doing inspections. Uh testing shows one thing, but um it doesn't, it doesn't show the whole picture. So working with the inspectors and know where to look um is very helpful. And then working with remediators that um understand how to remediate properly so that it doesn't um further have an issue in the home is essential. Uh and yeah, so I I went on a tangent there for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Um can I take you with me on stages and stuff to really help explain this guy? You hit the nail on the head. I mean, first off, air sampling, it's the funniest thing because you have tens of thousands of inspectors out there that come in, they set up air pumps in the center of the room, they take air samples, and they just swear by that technology. But um, if you know anything about the technology and that's how you operated that specific piece of technology, you'd understand a Flawed the logic is, the execution of it, etc. I'll give you an example. So that cassette holds basically 75 liters of air passed through that cassette. Okay. 75 liters of air. Alright, think about like a two-liter bottle of Pepsi, it gives you some comparison. Okay, it's it's a bit of air. Sure. Except for the fact that a 10 by 10 room, which is like the standard size room with 8 foot ceilings, contains about 22,000 liters of air. Okay. So now what we're looking at 75 liters across 22,000 liters of air, uh, not even 1% of the volume of air in the room is getting measured. Okay, so what we're doing essentially is in a small 10 by 10 room, that sample is looking at a drop of water across an entire ocean. That's how we need to be thinking about this analogy. So when you do it from that perspective, you can see that, okay, I'm really not analyzing much of what's going on in the environment. Therefore, why am I telling people that the room is good by taking one air sample in the center of the room? I'm I'm really misleading people greatly. Now, if I said, hey, I analyzed less than one percent of the room in the center of the room, and that less than one percent of the center of the room looks good, then I'd be giving them ac actual factual information. But that's not what people say. They say, everything looks good here. And now people develop a false sense of security, like, okay, hey guys, guess what? Less than one percent of each room is okay. So I I'm told my house is a clean bill of health and I don't have a mold problem. Okay, good. Well, that's what's happening, and then people actually do have mold problems, and they've got all this false sense of security, and now they're working with a doctor like you who's trying to get them better, and you're like, Well, my patient says I have no mold and nothing's working. Well, it must be something else. So then they go down a whole nother rabbit hole for four or five years and don't get better, only to come back to realize it was their house the whole time. And that's been you know so often, right? Like this has been some of the most frustrating work in my career. To top it off, uh I've been doing this since about 2012. And it it you it's funny, I um I was the hero then, then I was the villain, now I'm the hero again. It you know ebbs and flows, but it's it becomes the the reason for this is because I've always stood my ground. Look, this has to be thorough, and I get it, like there are people that can't afford thorough. I get it that you know, maybe not everybody is as sensitive and needs as thorough. Okay, good. Thorough is what I stand for. I'm gonna I stood for it in 2012, in 2016, in 2020, and here I am in 2026. You'll talk to me in 10 years, I'll still be preaching thorough. Because it's just what from what I've seen scientifically, it's become my entire belief system. And the reason being is because here's my philosophy, I'll put it out there for everybody to hear. If we do such a thorough job for someone who's sensitive, then obviously we're gonna do such a thorough job for someone who's not, meaning that if we have the same approach to the care in people's homes, then if I have a family of four and I know one of them's sensitive and one of them's maybe halfway between sensitive and not sensitive, the other two aren't sensitive. Guess what? My approach is gonna work for the entire family. Now, if I on the flip side, if I start going the other direction and I'm less thorough, well then guess what? I'm gonna be in that 50% that that 50 percentile bucket of well, my approach works 50% of the time. The reason that my approach works probably 99% of the time is because it's thorough. And so at least people could know they can hang their hat on, hey, if I work with this guy, odds are I'm gonna feel better. Hey, you know what? I might spend more money with him than the guy down the street, because the guy down the street's definitely not gonna be thorough. But you know what? I I know I'm gonna get I know what the result I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get a thorough result, which I know is for me is what I need to have the best chance of success at creating a healthy environment so that I can heal. Because you hit the nail on the head. I mean, how often are people healing if they're not, you know, really resolving the problem?

SPEAKER_03 26:37

Yeah, and it's interesting, you know, a few years ago when I was bringing up mold, a lot of people, it was a lot harder to wrap their heads around it. And then even their whole family. If someone felt well in the house and and then one person didn't, it was like, no, like I'm fine. This house is fine. Um, I will say that has changed a lot. We still have work to do. But when people come in and I say, all right, like let me look at your testing and uh and let's compare it to your, let's compare the mold spores in your home to the mycotoxins in your body. Um, and and then look, let's look into remediation. I'm not having to convince people that hard. It's like, no, we understand that mold's a serious issue. We want to go with the best of the best. So I'm finally working with a clientele that um this information has gotten out there. And if you want to get better, there is certain steps you need to do in the right way. And it's not really trying to convince them. They're like, okay, we're on board. We had already worked with other people where it didn't work and like we need to do it the right way. So um that's kind of like how I've felt with my mold journey and my Lyme journey. Like it's like, if I only knew what I know now then, um, I would have saved money and I would have gotten better faster. Um so yeah, and it's even, I mean, mold's a big piece, but like there's also so many other things to look into in the indoor air quality space. Um, I I'll say that like I moved into this home um, I guess it was four months ago. And I didn't feel good initially. I did testing and the testing was pretty good. And it wasn't like my normal mold symptoms that I was having. So I was like, I don't think this is mold related. Um, and I checked the humidity. And I think you're in Florida, but I'm in Colorado and it's super dry in Colorado. And the humidity was like 19%. And I was like, oh, like, you know, we obviously don't want high humidity above like 50%, but like there's also an issue when it's super, super low. I never lived in a house that had such low humidity. So I was like, okay. Um, I looked into like different humidifiers that are safer and less conducive for mold. And I was like, okay, I'm doing it. I have to get a humidifier. And that helped. And then I was like, okay, so my migraine went away, but there's still something a little bit off. And this house was built in 2018. And when you open up the door, it had that new house smell, like so many homes do. But that's like, you know, we're talking about eight years of it should have already been off-gassed. So I was like, why is there still a new house, an off-gas, new house smell? And so I had a NADCA certified um inspector intermediator come in and they were like, oh, there's all of this dust in your HVAC system. So they cleaned the HVAC system um very thoroughly. And I I came back and the smell was gone. Uh so there's all these different pieces of like humidity and EMFs and and VOCs and mold. And when you have all of them together, then yeah, it's just like your toxic bucket fills up so much faster. I would say for me, a mold is definitely like my kryptonite and the other things I can I can work through a little bit easier. But um, but yeah, just really looking at the big picture and figuring out like, okay, I'm in, I'm in this home. Let's not freak out. Let's figure out um if it's possible to make it livable and uh what exactly is running the show. Um and and yeah, even when I did an ERMI test after they cleaned everything, it was so much better. Um and and so it's just yeah, looking at all the little pieces and figuring out how do I move forward? There's always a way to move forward. Mold is overwhelming. Um, and it's just a matter of doing it in the right way and uh yeah, and and going through the all the all the fun factors to go through.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Yes. Yeah, it's a lot to go through. I mean, there's a lot involved, of course, and it could be overwhelming, but it's just really looking at things holistically, right? You have to look at the body holistically, you have to look at the home holistically. You know, you would when you're making an investment, you would look at it holistically, right? You wouldn't be like, okay, I can make this investment at this time and hope for our the best. Like you have to look at life a little bit differently in terms of taking over control. And I think that's really like some of the pieces that I feel like people miss, and they just get super focused on one little sliver, and it's like, no, no, we have to look at the overall picture here. We really want to take control. So um I wanted we touched on long COVID, and I know in your response, you did cover MCAS and Lyme, and we kind of had this really holistic approach, but I wanted to just take a step back and really dive into each individual condition um uniquely. And I think the reason being is because you we're gonna have people that are searching for Lyme disease that are gonna stumble upon this and specifically want to know about Lyme. And and I and I think we can we can obviously educate in the responses towards you know, we want to look at this holistically, but I also do want to make sure we're capturing people's attention for what they're interested in and help them open their minds and understand there's more to this puzzle here. And so without further ado, like what is what's this connection between lime and mold that seems to really like like it's I I don't I almost don't know what comes first, you know, the the cart or the horse here, but yeah, the second we see someone with Lyme, we also notice that they're sensitive to mold almost instantaneously.

SPEAKER_03 32:38

Absolutely. So when people come into my practice, um, I try to figure out what's running the show. And when people are dealing with inflammation and it's not due to an accident, then I'm like, usually it's either a pathogenic load or a toxin load, or their immune system is dysregulated. So I will do tests for testing pathogens and testing mold mycotoxins, doing chronic inflammatory response syndrome markers to figure out um, is mold running the show, and then also doing tests on their immune system. I have worked with so many people that um they come in and they're like, I have Lyme, um, no treatment is working. And then we look into the mold piece, and I'm like, yeah, like you, you, your environment is um is allowing your immune system to be suppressed because you're being exposed to mold mycotoxins, which is activating these pathogens. Uh so they'll come to come to me and they'll be like, hey, I'm looking to go to a hospital for hyperthermia treatment. Can you help me prepare for hyperthermia treatment? And I'm like, yes, I can. But also, if you do hyperthermia treatment and you go to these hospitals and spend money, let's make sure this is sustainable and make sure your environment is conducive to you moving forward. I have worked with people where we get the mold under control and their Lyme symptoms dissipate. Um, so that's been really great to see. And um yeah, I would say mold, if you're in your environment and you have mold, that is going to suppress your immune system uh and possibly cause mast cell activation syndrome. So really dysregulate your immune system. And that becomes problematic in treating Lyme disease. Because when you go in and you first find out you have Lyme, you're like, okay, let's let's do some killing protocols. I no one has time to be sick. So it's like, let's kill, kill, kill, and then I'll be able to go back to work and function. And I'm like, oh no, like we can't do that. You have you have mast cell and mold. And if we go straight to killing, like you're you're gonna be like in bed. And it's good, the process, unfortunately, is gonna be a lot longer. Um, and the hardest lesson I had to learn, and I think the hardest lesson that most of the people that I work with have to learn is um really listening to their body and figuring out the right balance of when to introduce certain treatments in the right order. Um, a lot of times people are very type A that come in and and they're like, no, I can handle it. Like even if it's rough, like I'll get I'll get past it and then I'll get faster, I'll get better faster. And it's like, that's actually the opposite of how it works. Um, and so, so really um looking at what is running the show, um, looking at the mold, getting a good inspector to come in, getting a great remediator to come in, and then on my side, stabilizing mast cells, um, opening up drainage pathways, uh, looking into their diet and fixing their gut, um, and then also starting to get um certain binders in and take out these mycotoxins, support their mitochondria. Then we can go into some killing protocols with antimicrobial herbals. That's what I normally use. Or um there's other hospitals that I work with that that do other treatments um that can be very beneficial. And and then because this whole thing is traumatizing, um, and it's also like super misunderstood by a large majority of our society, um then we want to work on your limbic system. And and that might even be something that we want to do in the beginning, depending on where you're at. But um yeah, like this whole thing is a nightmare: lime, mold, messel, um, remediation, everything. And so it's overwhelming on a financial level, on a health level, on a relationship level. Um, and it doesn't have the support yet that it really needs. Um, so your body is stuck in this like fight and flight and not not ever feeling safe. Um, so then also working with them on certain programs to regulate their nervous system is so huge so that they can, again, like if they're exposed to mold, um, they're not, their body's not having a huge reaction. It's able to tolerate it. Um, and yeah, just um going through all these pieces so that they can really move forward and then also having them understand why we're doing these things so that we can prevent further issues in the future.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Um not to mention like the trauma that people go through, just like even getting to this point where they find something like this, and then they find the right people and go get the right tests and come to the right conclusions. I mean, you know how many doctors do they go to that dismiss what they're dealing with because they just don't they don't deal with that. They don't know what what what they're looking at in front of them. You know, they just see these odd things like, well, the normal insurance covered panels look fine, and so this person in front of me, uh, I'm not really sure what's wrong with them. Maybe they should go see a psychiatrist. Like I can't tell you how many stories start out like that, right? And so um, you know, it it's pretty frustrating to even just get to the point that they're at, and then they meet the wrong people, they remediate with the wrong remediator, inspect with the wrong inspector, they go down a wrong path. That that takes time, money, and anguish, right? And so it it can be a very stressful journey, of course, and not making the right decision and doing things in proper sequences is you know, is also adds to the pain here, which is why I wanted to just double down and ask you when it comes to mold and lime, I often hear, and you've already just mentioned that how important the sequencing is, but I often hear, like, look, if you have mold and you have lime, you have to treat the mold first, then the lime. Is is there truth to that?

SPEAKER_03 38:54

Um yeah, I feel like when people go in and they they kill, their bodies usually are so toxic that um that they feel worse. So um there are people where I can work in conjunction of of treating lime and mold. This is a population of people where their drainage pathways are working really, really well. I will say the majority of people in my practice, um, they're super, super sensitive. So if I were to do killing and treat the lime first before treating the mold and and making sure they're in an area that is healthier, um I it would be very difficult to move forward. Um so so yeah, they they go hand in hand. And again, like it's not always about kill, kill, kill. It's really about your train, getting your body, your immune system, healthy, strong enough so that like there's always going to be mold and stressors in our environment. But if we can get our home where we are spending a lot of our time to a healthy space, then our body is going to be a lot more resilient and be able to take those hits when you're traveling or going to different spaces. Um, and it's also going to be a lot more receptive when you're treating other um other things like a pathogenic load. Um, so the mold piece, I cannot stress enough how big it is. It is like Lime's kryptonite and um really making sure it is done thoroughly, the home is done thoroughly, the treatment for the body is done thoroughly, is so key in actually being able to respond and move forward. And you had mentioned, like, you know, this is this is traumatizing. And so people are being told to see a therapist. I actually will go to therapist's office and and be like, hey, like if you are seeing people that are having symptoms of derealization, depersonalization, or like very quick, like um severe anxiety and depression, like this is a red flag. It's usually a red flag for uh a mold, and it's also a red flag for Bartonella, a coinfection, uh a tick-borne coinfection. And and I've been pleasantly surprised that um fortunately in Colorado, there's a lot of functional medicine practitioners and psychiatrists, and they've been super receptive to it. And um, and then I've been talking to them about brain specs. Um, brain specs are so important because uh a psychiatrist will be able to order one, and that'll often be able to tell us what specifically and where specifically uh are we having issues in the brain and what's misfiring. And then we can be like, okay, there's a lot of inflammation in this area. You weren't in an accident. What is causing this inflammation? And that's when we do pathogenic testing, and that's when we do toxicity environmental toxin testing. Um, and with so many of these psychiatrists that I've worked with, Lyme and mold have been huge hitters for psychiatric conditions. So um, yeah, like yes, like it does impact your brain and therapy, a therapist can be very helpful, but also like let's get to the root cause. And there are specific tests, brain specs, showing why you are having these very severe symptoms, and then looking at the the root cause from there of what is causing this inflammation in your brain. So just um having the tests for for family members to also understand like this isn't just in their head, like this is clear inflammation, and like um certain areas of the brain are firing off a lot more than it should be, or the blood flow isn't working correctly. It's good to have that data to show family members or partners that like this is real, their symptoms are very serious, and we net need to get to the bottom of it. And oftentimes that getting to that is looking into old mycotoxins um and your environment.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Uh no, I I love what you said there, and I'm glad that they are receptive. You know, it's something that came up into my mind was recently at a client who was like on anti-anxiety medication, uh antidepressant medication, and it wasn't working. Like she was literally telling me that she was still feeling anxious, and uh, you know, she obviously was in a moldy environment because she was a client and she got out of the moldy environment, but the doctor obviously had told her to keep stay on your meds. Um, and now now she was out of the moldy environment. She actually felt like being on the meds was getting worse, like making everything worse. Um, and so you know, I was like, Well, you need to speak up and say something to your doctor because obviously, you know, that's it's not working. You don't want to keep just taking. It especially if it's making you you know worse, having more anxious thoughts and more depressed, right? So um i it's it's wild to me, but I think if there's a way to create an educational program uh to help these psychiatrists across the country understand that you know they might be treating people for something that's completely environmental and making the problem worse, you know, hopefully the response would be, oh that's that's not the intention. We don't want to do that, right? Because um, you know, that that's not good. That's not what we're trying to do here. So I'd be I'd be I'd love to uh uh join you on that educational campaign. I'll tell you, I I I have a passion for getting people the information and trying to help really catch this much earlier on.

SPEAKER_03 44:47

Um yeah, wouldn't wouldn't that be nice to catch this earlier on so people aren't suffering as much and and um having these neurogenitive conditions, um yeah, getting to it sooner rather than later. And the whole reason how I got into this field is I had a very bad case of tick-borne infections and I was living in mold. And when I lived in mold, um, that is when I had severe anxiety and severe depression, which I never experienced ever before. Um, and so I did see a therapist and a psychiatrist. The thing that helped me the most obviously was getting out of the home, but also detoxing. I didn't, and some people do respond to medication, and I'm not against medication, but for me, I couldn't find a medication that worked. And every time I detox, I'd be like, oh, I feel like a little bit more like myself, or I would do a phosphatidylcholine infusion, and I'd be like, I have a little bit of my brain back. Um, so yeah, just really listening to your body and um and going from there on on um on listening to it whisper before it like screams at you is really important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Yeah, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna say something unpopular here. I'm not against life-saving medication, obviously. I am against though using medication as a crutch instead of finding the root cause issue. And I think that that, you know, hopefully that resonates because that that's really I think where the challenge is. I feel like we've just become so accustomed to just taking a pill for every ill that we have really ignored the work that it takes to get to the root cause. So we can actually help people get off medication, not just tell people, ah, you'll probably need that the rest of your life, because we don't really know what's wrong with you. I think that's part of the traumatic experience that people typically experience. Um, before we go, uh there's a couple things. I definitely wanted to get your opinion in regards to MCAS. Um, so if you can explain what MCAS is and then um, you know, explain the MCAS mold connection. I know you've you've already kind of touched on it in some of the other areas, but just to specifically cover MCAS, um, because I know I know there are people uh dealing with MCAS not and and are stuck and not sure what to do.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

So um MCAS stands for mast cell activation syndrome. And it's really tricky to diagnose. Uh oftentimes when you get histamine tests or or different tests, um, they will come out as normal. And so uh a lot of physicians will just be like, okay, you you don't have you don't have mast cell. Um so diagnosis makes it very difficult because um the testing isn't always accurate. But basically, um oftentimes mast cell can come from what I've seen it come from the mo most is severe mold exposure. And so what happens is there are these mast cells that are really there to help your body. So if there's something dangerous that you could be um sensitive to or allergic to, they come out and they're like, hey, warning, warning, um, you want to get away from this product. And and then um when it comes to mast cell activation syndrome, these mast cells have overpopulated and now they are very reactive. And so um you may be exposed to something that is, you know, a moltoxin that is dangerous, but even in a little bit, and your bio, your body will fire off these mast cells and these cytokines that create additional inflammation. So if you are, if you're out there and you are trying to do different treatments and you're like, I'm just so reactive to everything, like I'm so frustrated, you know. Like I was talking to someone and and they did, they did a um a sauna and they felt better after it. But I did a sauna and I actually flared up terribly. Um, that's a cue. Like mast cells don't like heat. So um, so we may be dealing with mast cells. If you are someone that are finding yourself stuck very sensitive to a lot of foods, very sensitive to um smells and chemicals, VOCs and and just environments in general, uh, it's not only about like, let's go right to treating mold or right to treating lime. We need to stabilize these mast cells because uh a lot of times when you're putting something foreign in your body, even if it's a good thing, even if it's like um, you know, glutathione, that it's a major antioxidant that helps your body detox. If your mast cells are inflamed, you could have a bad reaction to it. And and so figuring out whether you have mast cell or not, um, we could do that. In my practice, I do it with some testing, but you could also do it with certain mast cell stabilizers, H1 and H2 inhibitors, um, even something as simple as like, like if you're very sensitive, taking a claritin that is um that is dissolvable, uh, a children's claritin, and then taking that with pepsid. Um, so that would be an H1 and H2 inhibitor that helps with allergies, but also helps stabilize mast cells. Um, if you're feeling like that help has helped a little bit, that gives us an indicator of, okay, you might also have a histamine intolerance and there might be a bigger mast cell issue going on. And so, yes, we want to look into environment and um, and then we also want to look into genetics. Uh for these people that have mast cell, oftentimes their genetics are um are they have a lot of genetic defects that um don't allow their body to metabolize certain supplements uh as effectively as possible.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

So like the parasitin was was huge, um, and still is huge. Anxious and things like that.

SPEAKER_03 51:19

So I know I'm kind of going on a tangent, but when when I see people that are so sensitive, um, it's not just about like, okay, it seems like you have a histamine intolerance. It's also looking at their genetics and really listening to what have they flared up from. And that really helps me understand how to navigate their recovery process and how to best stabilize their mast cells, which also includes diet. So many of these people have um have dietary issues where they can't tolerate most foods. And if if you're looking at um at a diet, a lot of times people are like, oh, I'll just eat like fermented foods. That's going to be really good for healing my gut. Um, but that actually, if you have mast cell activation syndrome or histamine issues, anything that is fermented or that stays out longer creates more histamine on the actual food. So if you've noticed, if you're listening and you've noticed, like, huh, I made a really healthy dinner on Sunday, and then I had the dinner two days later, and I felt really, really crummy after this dinner. That is a sign that there, that you may have a histamine intolerance. Um, and there has been histamines that have grown on this food, and you're having a reaction to it. So there are treatments like DAO enzymes and things like that, um, which DAO is a is another piece of the puzzle. And usually people are lacking this enzyme. So there are certain supplements that you can take to help um to help with the mast cell process uh when eating, and also even just um when interacting with things that could flare out mast cells. So it it essentially allows your body to mast cell creates your body to be more sensitive and more reactive than it normally would be. Um it doesn't mean that you're gonna be like this forever, but we really want to take a step back and stabilize the mast cells first before going into um the other things that that are also impacting your system.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Well, one thing's very clear. We do not want a moldy puzzle. It's not a piece you want to have in your puzzle. Um, I think, you know, first off, thank you so much. Like there is such an amazing wealth of information today. I mean, you know, I I love what I do because I get to learn new things every day. And so thank you for teaching me through about all the different nuances between long COVID and uh, you know, uh the MCAS and Lyme disease and this whole connection and how important it is to have a healthy environment. I think that's uh you know really vital, and I hope other people, you know, get some takeaways from those as well. Um, there are two questions I always like to ask, my guests. And they're fun, uh a little nerve-wracking, but they're fun. Oh pressure's on. Pressure's on. So the the first question is, you know, what what would you consider the biggest lie that you've uncovered um in your in your career so far, just in terms of the overall medical picture?

SPEAKER_03 54:38

Um that that mold isn't that serious. Um yeah, we uh we're definitely we're we're getting there, but we're behind. Um and I think that in like hopefully not 20 years, but um maybe in like 10 years, we're gonna look back and be like, wow, like look at all of these conditions that we mold was a massive factor in in these conditions. Um and and how many of these people could have been um prevented from so much suffering if we recognized how serious it is. And and that also plays a role in like now when we're we're creating building buildings and looking into building biology, um, there's a lot of issues that we're seeing there as well. And so yeah, I think the the biggest thing is like that mold isn't as serious as as people realize. And there, you know, people will be like, well, there's mold everywhere. There, there is, but there's also certain molds that are more dangerous than others. And so when I look at my clients' charts and I see like suicidal ideation, I'm like, oh, I bet you have this certain mold mycotoxin in your system. And then we test them and they do. And so really putting all the pieces together and realizing that mold is a massive issue. It's not going anywhere. We need to recognize it sooner rather than later to prevent further suffering, and it needs to be treated correctly to move forward.

SPEAKER_00 56:10

Yeah, I I uh I really don't love the mold is everywhere statement, mainly because it's a bit misleading. No, no, like um people say it all the time, right? They say like mold is everywhere. So what am I supposed to be like an apathy now and just like lie down and die now? Or am I supposed to do something about the mold in my house? Because you know, the this whole mold is everywhere thing. The reason it's confusing is because, like you said, you know, it's mold is a hundred thousand different species. Mold is both the organism and the particle, right? Then the it it also just gets lumped into the toxin that it produces, so it could be very misleading. Because, yes, if I took an air sample, I will have at least one spore of mold. It'd be weird if it didn't, right? And we're not trying to build bubbles around the house. However, mold is actually everywhere that it's growing because it's an asexual organism that reproduces. So if I find the spore, then the organism is not far behind it, right? And so we have to understand is that we're we're not looking to just remove all mold. We're trying to actually control the amount of mold that's in our environment so that the air we breathe is healthy. And when you say when when people say statements like mold is everywhere, it gives this, it does two things. One, it creates this apathetic effect in people, like, oh, well, it's everywhere, so what am I supposed to do? I guess I can never I'll never be able to breathe another breath again, which that's not the effect we want to create. We want to create a positive effect, want to help people achieve hope that they can do something about it. And then the second thing is um it creates this misleading thing like uh, well, it's it can't be mold because mold is everywhere, so your problem isn't mold. Well, that's not true because there are different molds, there are different quantities, right? There are some molds produce mycotoxins, and there could be uh specific locations of mold growth where there are the molds and the bacteria are competing for one another, and so they're producing mycotoxins and endotoxins, and now you're being exposed to those things, right? And so you have to really look at it from this perspective of mold is everywhere that is growing, and it's about controlling the amount of mold that we're exposing ourselves to. If I go outside, and I'm typically I typically feel good outside because the amount of mold in the air versus the almost an infinite volume of air that that exists, it's usually pretty low. But then if inside, if the concentration of mold that I'm breathing is, I don't know, a thousand times worse, right? I'm probably gonna notice something. So I think it's it's it's really it's a whole reframing that we have to do. And and by the way, it's I think it's the biggest lie that I've been exposed to also, because in my career, they just insurance companies would say, Hey man, it's no big deal, just paint over it. Hey man, it's no big deal, throw some bleach on that stuff, you know. Like, well, let's move on. And it's like, no, no, we want to do this right. And uh, you know, having to educate those people, uh that that was probably one of the toughest things I ever had to do, right? Because there's money associated with it. Um, but it's yeah, it's it's crazy. So the the other question that always is a fun one, and it's typically only fun because there's always a shed of truth somewhere. Um, when we're talking about controversies, controversies they like to be spread, they like to be shared like wildfire. And most of them, most of the reason is because there's always some truth within them. Obviously, not usually the whole truth, or sometimes it even is the whole truth. Um, you know, case in point, sometimes 20 years ago, this whole thing comes out, someone says, hey, we shouldn't do that, and that guy is now marked as a controversial figure. 20 years later, right? The science comes out, the data comes out, and it's like, uh, maybe that wasn't so controversial after all. I think that guy was right. So when you look at it from that perspective, what are some of the controversies that you found were, you know, actually true?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:05

Um, I think a lot of it is dependent on how things are treated. So, like if you look into any treatment, um, say like FMT, if you're not getting it from the right donor, then it can actually create side effects. Um, if you are remediating but not um containing it and doing it right, it can be problematic. So at the end of the day, I think it's so important that if you're looking into things that may be controversial, um, and and again, the US, we're really good at treating acute illnesses, but not chronic illnesses. Um, and we're getting there. We're definitely moving in that direction. But um, but yeah, there's a lot of things. Mold is controversial um in many states and and very taboo. Uh, and so when when we're working with these things, we want to make sure that, like, okay, like, yes, you have mold, and this person said to clean it with bleach. Um, that's not ideal. But you uh on your podcasts, on Instagram, on things, on many different things, you explain the right ways to clean it. And uh, and even like with cross-contamination, like some people will say um you can't get mold out uh or mycotoxins out. And it's like, okay, there is like certain solutions that you can use. Um, and for many people it is effective. So I think it's a matter of of what you're using, who you're working with, and if you're doing it the right way to make sure that yes, I can understand the confusion behind some of the controversial issues, but when it's done correctly, you actually get the results that that you need. And um, and then it becomes like like a, oh, this isn't like cigarettes being like, oh, are they unhealthy or um are they fine? Now it's like everyone knows that cigarettes are unhealthy. That's kind of like where mold is that, where it's like, is it unhealthy or is it fine? And it's like, no, it's unhealthy. And let's look at the different ways to treat it. Some people might find these ways controversial, but it when done correctly, it can actually move you forward and get you healthy.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:21

That's so crazy. I just remembered a story of like a client who uh, you know, we're we were basically recommending to clean the house as part of the process. And she's like, she got a second opinion, and uh the guy said, Oh, you don't need to clean the house. Well, would let me ask you a question. Do you open your windows and doors? Well, then why would you clean your house? Second you open your windows and doors, you're gonna have new mold come in. And it's just like, man, this guy doesn't understand any level of science at all, you know. Uh, and it's frustrating, right? Because some people are like, Well, maybe I should listen to that guy because it would be cheaper if I didn't have to clean the house versus having to clean the house. And, you know, I need I need product and I need microfiber towels, and it's gonna take time, and you know, it's it's mind-blowing because yes, some spores will come in from the outside. That's not the problem. The problem is the massive concentrations of spores that are currently inside that are entering your body with every breath that you take 20,000 times per day. Uh, so it's it's really wild. You know, it's kind of like, hey, why would you treat a body an antibiotic? And that I know it's like the worst example to come up with, right? But why would you give a body an antibiotic? Because there's bacteria everywhere, so you're just gonna get bacteria again. Well, no, because you have an infection, so you want to deal with the infection, right? And like that's the whole point of that. And so, yeah, it's it's really uh it's really painful, um, you know, just listening to the opposing opinions um that exist out there. And the reason that it's so painful is because like, look, we're trying to we're trying to make improvements, and you can't make improvements unless you really start to deal with the problem and what what encompasses what the problem creates. With mold, you're talking about the spores, the fragments, the toxins, right? And if you have mold, then you have bacteria and you have those spores and those fragments, and so you have to really look at it from that holistic perspective and all under the purpose of making sure that the air people are breathing is healthier, all for the purpose of so that they can go to you and get treatments and they'll actually work. Man, what a concept, right? It's like I wish I didn't have to bang my head against the wall all the time, but here we are.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:33

Yeah. And but thankfully, like people like you, you are doing everything you can to spread awareness. And um, and so hopefully that continues to grow. And and I have seen it grow. Um, like I I lived in Brooklyn for 10 years. Um, and when I was looking for apartments, um, people would kind of like look at me funny when I bring when I bring up mold. Um, I moved to Colorado and it's not taboo at all here. Um yeah, it's uh it's very well known. And when I say mold, they're like, oh, okay, yeah, no, like we actually did an army test where we had a repeatator or inspector come in and and they know all about it. They use all the language that we use. So that's been nice to see. Like, yeah, yeah, seeing that we are moving in the right direction, that it's not as taboo as it once was, and uh, and we're we're getting there, but uh, we still still we still have a ways to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:34

Well, cheers to more head banging against the wall, and uh hopefully seeing progress in in the wake of that. Well, Michelle, it was really such a great pleasure to have you on again and to chat and catch up and uh really so appreciate all the information you've shared. Uh, for those listening, where can people find you? How can people connect with you, work with you, et cetera?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:55

Uh yeah, my company is the Lime Specialist, so my website is thelinespecialist.com. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook. And my handle is the Lime Specialist. Yeah, so happy to help however I can. I've I've definitely gone through the lime mold messel world. And it's a really tough one and an overwhelming one. But I'm happy to help navigate and uh and yeah, help you through the process. And thanks so much for having me on here. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:27

Awesome. Well, thank you again. I'm sure we'll have you back again soon. And thank you for joining us for another episode of Never Been Sicker. I'm your host, indoor air quality expert, Michael Rivino, and see you soon.